Dungeon Masters: An Interview with John Francis Daley and Jonathan Goldstein
Photo: Dan Doperalski
For filmmaking duo John Francis Daley and Jonathan Goldstein, it was a peculiar path to becoming dungeon masters.
After penning the script for Spider-Man: Homecoming and the colossal success of their second film, Game Night, it looked like the pair were going to take a bite of the superhero apple for their next directorial venture. They closed a deal to helm The Flash, the first live-action solo film for the Scarlet Speedster. They took over the project after a near baker's dozen of writers and directors departed the project due to creative differences. However, like the many who came before them, they also didn't last. So they picked up the pieces and decided to take on an equally ambitious property — the fantasy roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons.
Just like The Flash, bringing the world of D&D to multiplexes had long been in development and full of unsuccessful endeavours. And in the background remained the stigma left by the previous attempt over 20 years ago featuring a scenery-chewing Jeremy Irons. But when Daley and Goldstein took over, they cracked the code. They displayed a clear enthusiasm for the game's mythology but wisely kept their story accessible to those unfamiliar. It was also refreshingly self-contained, with emphasis placed firmly on inventive action and a motley crew of characters portrayed by a charming ensemble cast. And while perhaps the film didn't reach its financial ambitions, the consensus from critics and audiences alike was glowingly positive.
With the film now available on all digital services, I talked with Daley and Goldstein about how they balanced contemporary and medieval language, taking inspiration from the films they hate, and if they still collect DVDs. This conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity.
CONNOR DALTON: I'm sure you would have had a lot of people knocking on your door after Game Night. I understand you two were working on The Flash initially, but once you departed that project, what made you decide to do Dungeons and Dragons: Honour Among Thieves as your follow-up?
JONATHAN GOLDSTEIN: We saw an opportunity to make a fantasy movie in a way that we haven't seen before, at least not for 30 years. And that was to bring our kind of genre-bending sensibility to it with a sense of humour [but it] not [be] a spoof, still be very true to the source material, and create characters that people can root for and relate to. And to our good fortune, the studios were behind that approach.
DALTON: Considering how vast the D&D mythology is, how did you determine what your story would be?
JOHN FRANCIS DALEY: Well, while we changed a great deal of what was in the original script, the thing that we definitely adhered to and saw a lot of potential in was it being a heist picture. Regardless of your familiarity with the lore, everyone has seen a heist at some point on film. And so it felt like a nice bridge into this world that is known by some and not by others. The other thing that we knew we needed to create were characters that we could get behind, were grounded, were relatable, and always had one foot in the contemporary because that is what is so special about D&D. It is a game that is ever-changing, ever-evolving, and that is something that allows us to have characters that are not just baked into this semi-medieval fantasy world — they are you and me. And that, to us, is an exciting way into a story because you don't have to convince people that these characters are a part of them. We can see ourselves in each and every one of these characters.
DALTON: For a film like this, how do you balance the language in the dialogue so that it isn't too contemporary but nor is it too medieval?
GOLDSTEIN: We wanted to make sure that it was not all filled with thee's and thou's and Shakespearean [language]. But we also had to police ourselves so that we didn't do anything that was like internet slang or expressions that feel like they're from recent history. It's not that hard to do.
DALEY: Avoiding clichés! Like avoiding [Chris Pine's character] Edgin saying something like, 'Well, that just happened!' (laughs). That is the sort of barometer that we end up setting in all of our films — to just try to veer away from the easy lines, like colloquialisms that have been done to death. And on the other side, making sure that our characters aren't so archaic that they are utterly alienating to a normal audience.
DALTON: The size and scope of this film is staggering. Given your background is in directing comedy, how did you find crafting big action set pieces and using extensive VFX?
GOLDSTEIN: It was a lot of preparation and a lot of time spent on Zoom with stunt coordinators, our cinematographer, our pre-vis people, our storyboard artists. Just as we approach writing a dialogue sequence in a way that tries to do it fresh, [that's how] we approach the action, whether it's using things in the environment the way John Wick does or having the characters find new ways to use their weapons or things that aren't even weapons at all. And being able to show the action in wide shots and long takes so that you don't have to cut the hell out of it, and you can tell what's happening.
DALEY: Yeah, a lot of the decisions that we made were informed by the films that we hate (laughs) because we wanted to veer away from those things. There is an inherent laziness, even if it isn't intentionally lazy on the part of the filmmaker, making some of these things. It feels lazy as a viewer to see something that is either impossible to understand from a visual perspective in terms of, like, geographically, how a fight is playing out or just leaning into tropes in a way that just feels safe. And it makes life a hell of a lot more difficult for us when we're crafting these things, but ultimately more satisfying because you see that the audience is clearly responding to what makes these things so different.
DALTON: I want to talk about a couple of members of your ensemble. First, Chris Pine is one of my favourite actors. What made you think of him for the role of Edgin?
DALEY: Well, he's so good at juggling both the dramatic and the humorous side of things, and he's one of the few that can do that. He's also really comfortable with portraying himself in a vulnerable light, which you don't often see in leading men these days. So to have someone that is so adept at a multitude of genres and emotional tonalities is like a superpower, and for us, we couldn't think of anyone better than him to fit the role.
DALTON: The other actor I wanted to ask you about was Hugh Grant. I read you wrote the part of Forge Fitzwilliam with him in mind. Considering he said he was more into S&M than he was D&D, I'd love to know how you pitched it to him! Was it an easy sell?
GOLDSTEIN: We had the script to pitch itself to him, and he just loved it. He told us that he hates everything he reads, but he loved our script and was really taken by the tone and the humour of it, and he liked the character. So, fortunately, we didn't have to pitch very much. He just got on board.
DALTON: Given the film has received great reviews and has been embraced by the D&D community, has there been any talk or work done on a possible sequel?
DALEY: There have been some preliminary conversations about what a sequel could be. But to be quite honest, as we were conceiving this film and filming it, all we really focused on was making the best possible first film we could. We wanted to make something that would stand by itself regardless of if a sequel came after it. The one key mistake that a lot of studios make is to look at a movie as the first instalment of a cinematic universe, which is too broad of a perspective and can create a film that doesn't feel satisfying on its own. So our approach was to kind of do the opposite of that and make something that we were really proud of that, regardless of if there were sequels or not, works. So we've been talking about it, but we're still waiting to see how the dust continues to settle before we really tackle whatever a sequel might be.
DALTON: We're here today because the film is now available digitally, and the 4K and steelbook launch in June. Are you two digital collectors or physical media types?
GOLDSTEIN: I stopped collecting DVDs a few years back. I used to have a big collection of them, but then I would find I couldn't find what I wanted when I wanted it, so I'd wind up buying what I already had.
DALEY: You got to put it in alphabetical order! I do still collect physical media. I don't actively buy it, but sometimes I'll buy the sort of bargain bin collections for five bucks in case of an inevitable lapse of the grid where all we have is physical media. If we're living like Mad Max, at least I'll be able to enjoy Monty Python and the Holy Grail in my bunker.
DALTON: Thank you so much for your time today, guys. I think I speak for many when I say I hope to see Chris Pine play the lute again very soon.
DALEY: Thank you, Connor. Appreciate it.
GOLDSTEIN: Take care. Good talking to you.
This article was originally published by FilmInk